KidNuz Convos: Straight Talk on Kids & Vaccine with Dr. Joel Gator Warsh

Things can get very one-sided or even heated when it comes to conversations around vaccines, and it shouldn't be. It's a medical product. It's meant to protect you, and so you should be able to ask questions and have discussions.

Tori Campbell

Welcome to KidNuz Convos. I’m Tori. And there are a lot of questions these days about childhood vaccines. Especially with new reports on the ongoing spread of measles cases in the US.  So today we’re going to have a conversation on this important topic with Dr. Joel Gator Warsh, a board-certified pediatrician who has written many books. His latest is called Between a Shot and a Hard Place. So thank you for being here, Doctor.

Dr. Warsh 

Thank you for having me on.

Tori 

So first of all, can you answer a basic question? What exactly are vaccines?

Dr. Warsh 

The main thing to understand for a vaccine is it's meant to give you either a small part of an infection or the whole infection, but in a way that's either killed or just a little small part of it, so that way your body can be exposed to the infection without really getting sick. So we're trying to make sure that you're exposed to this, so that way you just get maybe some minor symptoms. You know, your arm might hurt a little bit, but you don't get the full infection, and you don't really get sick. So it's preventing you from getting that because your body learns how to handle that, and then if you are exposed to it in the future… so if, if you walk outside and somebody's sick, and you get that disease, then your body knows already how to fight it off.

Tori 

And so why, why is it important to have vaccines? What's the big fuss about?

Dr. Warsh 

I think the big fuss is about preventing disease. You can get pneumonia, bad coughs, all sorts of symptoms. And so, really, with the invention of vaccines, we've been able to prevent a lot of disease. We've been able to decrease the amount of people that get sick. We've been able to protect people that otherwise we weren't able to protect before. And so we have this new technology. Well, it's not that new anymore, but it's something we've had for the last, you know, 50 to 100 years, and so we offer this to patients... and pretty much everyone. Every kid is offered these if they want to have them.

Tori 

So from birth to 18 years old, children typically receive protection from 18 serious diseases, including chickenpox, measles, polio, and whooping cough, just to name a few. So the CDC just removed seven recommended vaccines, but other groups, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, says kids should still get all 18. So what are parents... And if kids are confused by this, what do you say to them?

Dr. Warsh 

I think it's really important to just acknowledge that it's a very confusing time. If you are listening to the news and paying attention to the news, then you're hearing all sorts of different things when it comes to vaccines, and that's why I think it's just so important that we are able to have conversations about this, cause sometimes it can be a little bit controversial, and things can get very one-sided or even heated when it comes to conversations around vaccines, and it shouldn't be. It's a medical product. It's meant to protect you, and so you should be able to ask questions and have discussions. But right now, yeah, I think it's really hard for parents and for kids because they're hearing different messages. They're hearing something from the American Academy of Pediatrics. They might be hearing something different from Health and Human Services and Secretary Kennedy. They might be hearing something different from their doctor versus their friend's doctor versus an influencer on social media versus a different influencer on social media. And so, you know, how do you know what to do and who to trust? So I think what's important is you really want to make sure that you have a trusted pediatrician that you can talk to. And vaccines, while the word can get controversial at times, it shouldn't be, and you should be able to ask your questions, and anything that you're worried about, any concerns that you have, you should be able to ask your doctor about those concerns. None of the vaccines have been taken away. They're all available. There is some current, discussion and back-and-forth on which ones should be recommended for everybody because there is discussion around what America's doing versus what other countries are doing, and maybe prioritizing some of the vaccines a little bit more than others because there are a lot of vaccines, as you mentioned. So that's mainly what's happened. Nothing's really changed, not yet. Everything's still available, although the vaccines are still on the American Academy schedule. But the HHS, CDC has changed it for some of the vaccines, like hepatitis B, hepatitis A, to make it more of a shared clinical decision-making, so you can ask questions of your doctor and discuss it. It doesn't mean you shouldn't necessarily do it.

It's really important to have conversations, be open to asking questions, and having nuanced conversations.

Tori 

And I'm curious, you're an active pediatrician. What are families asking you about?

Dr. Warsh 

They're confused. They're asking about, you know, "We've heard this. What do you think? Should we still get these vaccines?" And then also, there's a lot of concern online about side effects and concerns around vaccines. "Are there too many?" So all of those kinds of questions, which I think is kind of spurring this back and forth. I mean, there's just a lot of back and forth on vaccines, and there's a lot that we do know and that we don't know, and so I think, again, it's really important to have conversations, be open to asking questions, and having nuanced conversations. I think that's totally okay.

Tori

So in addition to consulting with... Hopefully everyone has a good pediatrician, but are there other sources people can go to to get helpful, unbiased information, in addition to your book, of course?

Dr. Warsh 

Yeah, people have asked me that for a very long time, and obviously my book, you know, if you want to read, is great, but there are so many other great resources out there. And there's still lots of information on the CDC website, the HHS website, the American Academy of Pediatrics website. There are a lot of great books out there that you can read, and I think it's really important right now with everything going on, with all of the controversy, with all the back and forth- that parents and, and teens understand, they do want to get a little bit more educated, which I think is important, to read more than one thing. Read two or three different sources coming from different angles. You know, maybe something that's very pro-vaccine, maybe something that has more questions around vaccines. That way you can at least understand where the questions are coming from, where the concerns are coming from, as well as what the benefits of vaccines would be. And that way you can have a much more educated place to come and ask questions of your doctor.

Tori  

And some of my research for this, I understand there is concern about some of the ingredients, if you will, that are part of the vaccines, things like mercury or aluminum. Are those things that families, kids, and parents should be concerned about?

Dr. Warsh 

Those are the kinds of questions that are really good questions. I think that's completely reasonable, because if you think about metals, right, we were not so concerned about lead a long time ago, and you know, lead was in paint, and lead was everywhere. And then over time, we recognized that, you know, maybe there is some concern around this, and maybe we don't want to be drinking a whole bunch of lead. Mercury was in vaccines before, it was in the form of thimerosal, and while it was never proven to be harmful, there were certainly concerns around it, given we had increasing concerns about mercury in fish and other foods, so it was taken out. So no mercury in vaccines anymore. There is still aluminum in multiple vaccines. Aluminum is very helpful for vaccines in terms of stimulating an immune response, but I don't think... Again, it's not unreasonable to have concerns, not unreasonable to have questions about it. The evidence doesn't show so far that in the amounts that you're getting in vaccines, that it would necessarily be harmful. But again, we also said those same things about lead many years ago. So if you have concerns about it, you should discuss it with your doctor. And a lot of times, when you do talk about vaccines, things are so one-sided, and I think we need to be able to understand both sides. Like, understand why aluminum is in there, but also why some people have concerns about it, and then what information do we have? So those are the kind of really good questions that you can ask your doctor if you have concerns. Like, “Oh, I heard there's aluminum in there. Should I be worried?” “Oh, I heard about this side effect. How worried do I need to be?” Everything has risks. A disease has risks, a vaccine has risks. No vaccine is never gonna cause a reaction. Serious reactions are reported to be rare, but these things are possible, and so you want to be able to ask questions about that and understand what your risk is.

Tori

So there are, from what I understand, basically two reasons to get vaccinated. One is to keep yourself healthy, but the other is to keep the community healthy, as well. So there is some concern that if people choose not to vaccinate, maybe that could put the health of the whole community at risk, with people who may have cancer or little babies who aren't old enough to be vaccinated yet.

Dr. Warsh 

Yeah, that's very correct. So one thing that I think is, really important to understand is that there are different kinds of vaccines. So some vaccines really just protect you, and then other vaccines can protect you and the community as well. And I think the perfect example, the one that most people are hearing a lot about these days, is measles, right? The measles vaccine is actually very good at stopping transmission, meaning spread to other people. And because it's so contagious, one of the things that's really important when it comes to measles, if we want the spread to be contained, is that enough people get vaccinated, so that way the disease has nowhere to go. Basically, you have a vaccine, another person has a vaccine, and if somebody's exposed to measles, if somebody has it and coughs near them, then if they're vaccinated, the vaccine works very well and protects you, and there's nowhere for that disease to go, and then other people can't get it. Because there are babies that haven't got the vaccine yet. There are kids that are very sick that can't get the vaccine. They're talking about, you know, some kids with cancer, if they were to get sick, it would be much more severe for them. So if enough people get it, the disease can't really go around in the community, and so you're protecting those individuals that can't get the vaccine. So there are some public health considerations as well, some things to think about that are not just for yourself when it comes to vaccines. Some vaccines do just protect yourself. They don't stop any spread. For example, tetanus. So tetanus you can get from the soil but it doesn't protect anybody else. If you get it, if you get exposed to tetanus, then it helps prevent the disease from being severe for you, but has nothing to do with anybody else. So there are two different kinds of vaccines. Both can be helpful. Some protect other people, some protect you.

I think it's really important right now with everything going on, with all of the controversy, with all the back and forth- that parents and, and teens understand, they do want to get a little bit more educated, which I think is important, to read more than one thing. Read two or three different sources coming from different angles. You know, maybe something that's very pro-vaccine, maybe something that has more questions around vaccines. That way you can at least understand where the questions are coming from, where the concerns are coming from, as well as what the benefits of vaccines would be.

Tori 

Really, really good information to share. I have a teenage intern, I asked her for some questions, and she had a couple good ones I thought. As a pediatrician, not so much vaccine-related, but what is the greatest rising health concern you see for teenagers in modern times, and what are some things that kids can do now to prevent health issues later in life?

Dr. Warsh 

Yeah, that's a great question. I would say the biggest concern right now with kids and teens is chronic disease. So a long time ago, we used to be much more concerned about acute diseases, meaning, like, infections, so something that's happening right now. Chronic disease, meaning something that's more lifelong or long-term, so we're thinking about obesity and diabetes and autoimmune conditions and asthma and allergies. We're seeing this skyrocket, about 50% of kids now have a chronic condition, so something they're managing with medicine every single day, or needing medicine off and on over years. And so that to me is very concerning, cause it wasn't like that just a few years ago. And unfortunately, right now our environment is just not so healthy. A lot of our food is not so healthy, and a lot of the way that we're living is just not so healthy. So I think what you can do right now that's really important is to make health a part of your decisions every day, to be mindful when you're going to purchase food or going with your parents to purchase food, read the labels. It is really, really, really important for kids to grow up, and teens to grow up, starting to learn, turn over the box and to read labels. I mean, ideally, you're just getting food that doesn't even have a full label, and you know, you could just turn it into something. But if you are gonna buy, you know, chips or candy or whatever it is, it's really important to turn things over so you can start to look and see what's on there, and that way you can start to learn about ingredients. You don't need to be 40 years old to understand these things. You don't need a degree. I mean, if you don't even know what the word is, it's probably not good for you. So it's a great, easy place to start. You know, if the word is apple or almond, it's probably a lot better for you than methyl tetrahydro... You know, not everything that's a chemical name is bad for you. But if you don't even know what it is, that's probably not a good thing, and there are a lot of things that are quite simple, like how much sugar is in there? Are there artificial colors, artificial flavors? Like, what ingredients are in there? And if you can start to minimize those, then it goes a long way. Doesn't mean you can never eat a piece of cake again, doesn't mean you can never have a chip again, but if you start to buy the ones that are a little bit healthier and eat the things that are a little healthier, all those small changes add up.

Tori

Yeah, I say everything in moderation. 

Dr. Warsh

Exactly. 

Tori

All right. Well, Doctor, this has been a great conversation. Anything else you'd like to add for kids on vaccines or anything else?

Dr. Warsh

No, thank you for having me on, and thank you for chatting about it. Unfortunately, again, it's become way too controversial, and it shouldn't be. And for anyone who has questions about it, you know, if you're a kid out there listening, talk to your parents about it, ask them questions. Feel comfortable to ask questions. There is little that a doctor loves more than a teenager who asks them questions, you know? You should not feel shy. If you are nervous about getting a vaccine, ask us about it. Talk about it, especially if you're a little educated in it and you read up a little bit about it, that's going to make for a really fun conversation with the doctor. So don't be afraid to ask questions. Don't be afraid to be nervous about something. If you're getting a poke, you know, most people don't love that. That's okay. We get it. So we're okay with that, and we're totally fine to be asked questions, so feel comfortable to ask us.

Tori

Well, I have one question for you. You go by Dr. Joel Gator Warsh. What does Gator stand for?

Dr. Warsh

So my wife's last name is Intelligator, so people started calling me Dr. Gator, and it stuck, and you know, people find it funny and memorable. It's not a Florida thing. I grew up in Toronto, Canada. Nothing against Florida, but it's a wife thing.

Tori

Okay. All right. Yeah, I have a friend who's a big Florida Gator fan, so that was my first thought. Great, well this has been wonderful. I really appreciate your time and all the terrific information that you gave us. And again, tell people your book and website if people want more information.

Dr. Warsh

Sure. You can find me online, @drjoelgator on Instagram or X, and the book is Between a Shot and a Hard Place, and you can find it on Amazon or, you know, anywhere books are sold, or theshotbook.com.

Tori

Awesome. Well, thank you so much, doctor, I appreciate your time. And thank you for listening to KidNuz Convos. If you have a comment on this episode or a suggestion for a future Convos topic, please drop us a line at wehearyou@KidNuz.org. Don’t forget to tune in to our next regular KidNuz podcast episode, every weekday morning. 

To hear the interview, please listen here.